Крупный сдвиг: разорвёт ли Трамп отношения с Израилем? Израильский журналист о критической ситуации с Ираном

MAJOR SHIFT: Will Trump Split From Israel? Israeli Journalist on the Critical Situation in Iran.

Источник: https://tuckercarlson.com/tucker-show-gideon-levy-061226

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Tucker [00:00:04] Gideon, thank you so much for joining us. For Americans who are distracted by what's happening in Iran and with the U.S. Economy and by so many other things, can you bring us up to date on what is happening right now in Gaza, the West Bank, Judea Samaria, and Lebanon?

Gideon Levy [00:00:22] It's a war with some interruptions, it's a roller coaster. You go to sleep in Tel Aviv with a ceasefire. You wake up in the morning with ballistic missiles over your head. Gaza is bleeding and totally forgotten. I guess we'll have the opportunity to talk more about Gaza, which is very dear to my heart. In Lebanon, Israelis fighting for nothing without any purpose. People are killed, villages, all villages are being destroyed systematically, very similar to Gaza. Israeli soldiers are killed on a daily basis almost, and the whole thing seems like an ongoing war without any purpose, without any justification, and above all without any endgames, any real goals. What will stop it except of this desire to fight and to fight, and to kill?

Tucker [00:01:23] What is the point? You say there's no point to it, but it clearly is part of a larger strategy, I would assume. I mean, it's got to be. What do you think the bigger point of this is?

Gideon Levy [00:01:39] So, first of all, Israel was poor to believe that it is doomed to live on its sword, that the only language that we can talk in this region as we are the villa in the jungle, so to say, the only languages that we use here is the language of military power and as brutal as possible. This was before Netanyahu. Many things, by the way, were before Netanya. Netanyahu intensified those things, and today the only language clearly that Israel is speaking is the language of war. Anything can be solved only by war. Nothing can be sold by any other way like diplomacy, compromises, etc. And here we are, involved in so many fronts. You know, Takir, there are around 6 million people in the Middle East. Who were expelled from the homes, who are uprooted. Part of them will never see their homes again. Two million in Gaza, one million in Lebanon. For a while there were also two million in Iran, now not anymore. But think about this, all of them because of wars of choice, all of them, because of a very violent policy of Israel. Which might here and there have the justification, like after the 7th of October, another thing that I think we'll get into, but the proportion, the scale, and where are we aiming? Where are we, for God's sake?

Is Israel today a better place? Is it a safer place than 2023? Is it more popular in the world? What did we gain out of all those scores? And unfortunately, Taka, those questions are hardly being discussed in Israel, and this in many ways depresses me almost more than the wars itself. The fact that a whole people, 10 million people, very intelligent, very ideological and with very clear views, go to all those wars blindly and automatically without asking Why? What for? What do we gain? Put aside the moral side, let's say, morality, morality is for, you know, spoil the leftist self-hating Jews. Practically, are we living in a better place? The answer is unfortunately not. You can add to it, obviously, Taka, all the personal motivations of Benjamin Netanyahu. Which in my view are not exclusive, they are not the only. There are those among my friends who think that he does everything only for his career, only in order to stay in power. I give him more credit because I think he has an ideology, a very dangerous one, but he has a near-the-end ideology which motivates him as well.

But no doubt that those last wars served first of all his personal interests. He is a giant. He's doing very badly in the polls, and here he comes with another war, war after war. I want to ask, why did we have this need to bomb in Beirut two days ago? What did we achieve by this bombardment? Israel achieved anything out of it except of provoking Iran, and then we got this sleepless night last night with dozens of ballistic missiles over our heads. No one talks about it, no one asks it, and it's quite depressive to live in a society in which the main issues are not discussed. We discuss the wife of the Prime Minister, we discuss all kinds of gossips. We don't touch the core of the issue.

Tucker [00:05:42] I live in a country very much like that, so I know the feeling well. But just to stay on the point that you made about the practical effects of this, leaving aside the moral stain, whether it's the right decision, ethically or not, but as a practical matter, you have to wonder how many wars a country as small as Israel, just physically small, with a population that small and an economy that small, just a little country, How many can you fight before you risk? You know, real retaliation, risk your own existence. I mean, how dangerous is this?

Gideon Levy [00:06:19] Fortunately or unfortunately, Israel is a regional superpower from the military point of view, and no other country in the Middle East can beat Israel. They just can't. If they could, maybe they would. But Israel has still a very, very strong army with devices, technology, ammunition, and arms that your country was kind enough or too kind. To supply Israel blindly and almost without conditions or limits. And Israel has the military answer almost for any challenge. And this is, on one hand, obviously very good because we are safer. On the other hand, it corrupts also a country because it lets Israel to go wild, to go to all kinds of military adventures, knowing that by the end of the day we are not endangering the existence of all real assets, but because we are always stronger and we won all the wars, politically we lost them all.

Tucker [00:07:26] Is there a concern that the United States in the next, I don't know, five or 10 years might begin to withdraw its unconditional support for Israel?

Gideon Levy [00:07:37] You say five, ten years, and I would say five to ten months.

Tucker [00:07:41] Yes, I agree with that.

Gideon Levy [00:07:42] It's happening right now. I think that we are reaching a stage in which we will face a major shift in U.S. Policy toward Israel. Biden was the last Zionist, so to say, president. Donald Trump was the one who accepted almost all the ideas, the craziness of Israel and until now, we still have time to see, but until now. He went along the Israeli cycle, but the next president, would he be Democrat or Republican? One thing is sure, those relations will be challenged more or less, but they will not go anymore automatically and blindly. Maybe the aid will continue, but at least it will be conditioned. The problem is that it's, you know what, you want to supply Israel. You sing to the Israel. Israel is the most the country that it is at need more than any other country in the world. And you want to supply it with everything like any country in the world? Fair enough. Put some conditions. Put some conditions according to the American interest. Israel is not following neither the international law nor the American advances for many many years. The United States is speaking about the two-state solution for decades. And Israel is just ignoring it and doing anything possible to sabotage this idea. I think this is over and it's a question of months, not of years, maybe still in Donald Trump's time, maybe the next president, and then Israel will be in a real problem. Because without the United States in its current position, this will be a challenge that Israel never faced before, in my view, much more dangerous. And existentially dangerous than the nuclear of Europe.

Tucker [00:09:45] I agree with that. Do others in Israel see that coming? And what do they think of it? What is the view of the United States and Donald Trump in Israel?

Gideon Levy [00:09:55] To Donald Trump, as you know, he's more popular in Israel than in the United States. Yes. Actually, he is more popular than Israel than any other place in the world. Eh, it can change, obviously, if he will change his attitude. And the problem is again, that the Israeli discourse does not touch those questions. We don't speak about the occupation. We don't speak about their apartheid. We don't speak about our relations and our, our dependent. On the United States, you know, we are now in a stage of dependence which we never faced before. I don't think Israel ever faced such dependence on the United State because all the rest of the world, you now how it's treating Israel and what do the majority of the people in the world? What do they think about Israel? Paul's show, what a pariah state is, Israel, and in many ways, right, Israel. And here comes the United States, and if the United States will change its policy, what will Israel do? How will it go on, even militarily? Not to speak about politically in the international arena. Europe is just waiting to get a green light from the United States to change its policies. Now Israel, Europe is paralyzed because of the fear of Donald Trump and the United State.

Once the United States will shift its policy, I'm sure that you will see big, major shifts also in Europe, because the public opinion is by far more hostile toward Israel than the governments in Europe. This will have to be expressed by policies, by real measures, not only by articles in newspapers. So, we are facing a really horrible challenge in the coming months, not in the upcoming years. And there is no one to deal with it. We still think that we can do whatever we want. And this sort of talk here got such a boost after the 7th of October. Israelis tend to believe that after the seventh of October, we have the right to do whatever we want and this is very dangerous.

Tucker [00:12:12] Yes, it's interesting everything you said is very clear from here It matches my perceptions exactly, but you say no one is saying this out loud in Israel

Gideon Levy [00:12:24] And if he says, nobody would listen. And no, look, major principle issues are not discussed in the last three years. You cannot express it. We are still victimizing ourselves about the 7th of October. We are steel victimizing ourself as the David against the Goliath, the whole Arab world wants to exterminate us, to push us to the ocean. And we still believe that we are the chosen people, yes, if you will scratch under the skin of every Israeli I believe, secularist and religious. You will hear again and again, no, no. We are better. We know better. We are bitter. Take, for example, the international law. Israel is very much in favor of the international. It was brought to the world after the Holocaust, after World War II. Israel is so much in favor of it. But it is not a Bible about Israel, because we are a special case. And therefore, the international law cannot be applied to Israel. And if you dare to apply to Israel, you'll be labeled as an antisemite. How dare you? We are a Special Case, Tucker. And this way of thinking must bring Israel to very dark allies, to very darker corners, Which I don't know how we'll get out of it. I'm sorry that I'm so pessimistic, but the last three years really we went too far.

Tucker [00:13:59] Yes Well, you see this with individuals and not just countries. It's called hubris in English and it usually doesn't end until there's a lot of suffering and people wake up from their delusions about, I mean, I think it happens to every man that's happened to me and, but it happens at the, at the scale of a nation too. It's sad. So let me ask you about Gaza. What is the point of Gaza in the U S our media says the point is to dismantle Hamas, which is a terror organization. It's effectively legal in the United States to say nice things about Hamas. What is Hamas from your perspective? And is the war in Gaza or the military bombardment of Gaza designed to end Hamas? Is that true?

Gideon Levy [00:14:46] Now, Taker, and this is a conclusion that I came to just recently. It's very clear for me that the war in Gaza is a war to crush the Palestinian society in Gaza and finally also to make them leave. Now, how do I know it? The matter of fact is that Israel is opposing any kind of deal about Gaza. It's not that they don't want Hamas, but they don't want also the PA. They don't want an international force, they don't do nothing. They want the people of Gaza, over 2 million people, both of them living now in tents. I have some friends and old age friends who are living now two and a half years in a tent without electricity. Close friends, one of them is after a stroke, lying on the ground, on the sand for two and half years now without his medicines. Sub. I can't describe you his agony, his suffering. Israel wants to crush the society, to make them a bunch of handicapped, wounded, traumatized society without leadership, without any functional society, any functional institutions. Why are we opposing that Hamas will run the civil life in Gaza? They are the only one who can do it right now. There is no one else. Why can't they be the teachers? Why can they be their lawyers, their judges, their street cleaners, the policemen? No, we say no because we don't want all this to exist. We want anarchy there. And then will come the real wet dream of some Israelis, not all of them. To get to the real, I don't want to use the word final solution, but to get a real solution which will last, namely to push them to the south and then from the south to try to find them another place on earth which they will never find. But you cannot explain otherwise the attitude of Israel towards solving the problem of Gaza. If Israel would have really liked to get the solution, she would have had to come up with it. An idea of how to make Gaza a livable, viable place and society. Israel is doing all the opposite that it can, crushing the society. And I'm afraid that the next stage will be the West Bank.

Crushing the Palestinian people and not only militarily, making it a non-society. Because many Israelis truly believe that it's either us or them. And I believe it is us and them, but I am very lonely in this land now.

Tucker [00:17:40] If the government of Israel were to succeed in expelling almost two million Palestinians from Gaza and then took it over, does anyone believe that is itself a solution? I mean, it's obviously a crime, but the long-term repercussions from that will destroy Israel, it would seem to me. That just seems unwel... Take the moral calculation out of it as a practical matter that seems insane.

Gideon Levy [00:18:08] Well, it worked very well in 1948. The first Nagba, the first Nagb was a hell of a success. We expelled over 600,000 Palestinians. We destroyed all the villages. We didn't leave anything except of some mosque and some grains, all the rest totally destroyed. Covered it up with trees and nice park. And it worked. And me as a child growing up in this place, born here, going up here. You know, the first time I heard the word Nakba was when I was 20, 25. I never asked myself, what are those ruins around me here and there in Tel Aviv, in other places? Never thought that maybe someone owns it? Maybe someone is living now in a refugee camp instead of his home? Those things were totally oppressed and were not legitimate, and until now they're not legitimate. So the first Nakba was ahead of success. Why not to continue? I mean, for those people, I don't say the majority of Israelis want this to happen. The majority of Israel has another disease, namely being apathetic and indifferent. But the right-wingers, for sure, they want it to happen, and they are the only decisive part of the society. The settlers, the right-wingers, the fascists, they are the most powerful and most active. They have at least a plan. What plan do the leftists in Israel have, the Zionist leftists? What do they suggest? The alternative, now the opposition. What is their idea? What is the plan for God's sake? They are opposing now a two-state solution. Yair Lapid, the others, they say the head of the opposition, yes? Say that not in the coming 10 years, another 10 years which it's not coming, and meanwhile I believe that the two-state solution died a long time ago, we missed this trade. But in any case, what do you suggest? What are we suggesting to 7.5 million Palestinians who live between the river and the sea together with 7.6 million Jews who are living between the sea and the river? What are you offering them? Apartheid forever?

The rally brings us at least 7 players, and now we'll expel them one day.

Tucker [00:20:38] Where do they imagine millions of Palestinians will go, if they're expelled?

Gideon Levy [00:20:47] Weak part of their fantasy. Because I don't believe they will find the place they were looking for, as you know, even in recent months. They look in Somalia and Eritrea and God knows where Africa, all kinds of places, will give them money and will send them to a place that didn't work. And it will never work. I mean, no country in the world will accept millions of Palestinians. No way. Egypt doesn't want to get them, obviously. And like he saw, Jordan ending off with the refugees of Forty-Eight. Lebanon had enough from the refugees of Portier, they have no place to go. But the fact that this idea is motivating the present is by itself very dangerous. Maybe finally it will end up like the Native Americans, you know? Totally forgotten, be in all kinds of reserves, living without any heritage, without anything in Cormonia? A bunch of people who lost their identity, maybe this will be the end of the Palestinian

Tucker [00:21:50] If it would go on like this. Is the United States government doing anything to restrain Israel in these plans that you can tell?

Gideon Levy [00:22:01] I think the United States is a full partner. Look, we cannot think that what Israel is doing, knowing the dependence of Israel on the United State, we can't say that the United state is opposing it. You know, all the big liberal presidents that baffle Barack Obama with his wonderful, wonderful speeches and ideas, I had tears in my eyes when he was elected. What did he do? Did he stop Israel? His military aid was bigger than any other president. Unconditioned. So the United States is a partner for everything. If we talk about genocide in Gaza, the United State is a part. If you like it or not, it's not the main partner. Our accountability above all. But you know, they supply, they support, and they could do differently. It's not like you say, you know, eh... Some country in Africa who wants to stop a genocide, but they can't do anything. United States has the skills, has the leverages to stop. And he never, never did not the settlements. When did the Americans stop the settlements? Which is much more innocent than a genocide. What did they really do to stop the settlement project? They could in one form put an end to it. One phone call in which they would say, I'm oversimplifying it obviously, one phone call saying, listen, if you build one more terrace in the occupied territories, there is no aid to Israel, period. And in this day, the settlement movement would have died. But there was no president to do so. So the United States, if we speak about the settlement, the United says he's a partner. If you speak about the war in Gaza, You may agree with me that it was a genocide or not, it doesn't matter. The United States is a part of, a major part.

Tucker [00:24:00] Whiz More irresponsibility, yes. Everything you're saying is true and provably true. These are not opinions. These are facts. What, what is up for debate is why, why has a succession, every U S president since Harry Truman in 1948 gone along with this? Why has there been no meaningful condition attached to any of this aid, military and economic? Like what is this?

Gideon Levy [00:24:32] I think it's up to you to answer, Tucker, for me, it's a big mystery, really. There were years in which I really felt that we don't know who is the superpower between the two. Yes. There were those years that Israel really put the United States in its small pocket, as we say in Igbo. Totally ignoring, you know, totally ignoring confices, condemnations, threats, totally ignoring it, doing whatever it wants without any restraint. I ask myself, how come, with all this money and political aid, the United States is paying a hell of a price? I don't have to tell him for the support to Israel and the game. Please continue to support, but put some conditions to this. I have no answer. It's a mystery. To say that it is the Jewish lobby will be oversimplification, because it cannot be that one minority is so colorful. Not only it smells anti-Semitic, but I don't think it can be the full answer. Yes, the Jewish lobby was very powerful for many years. Not enough. The United States does not share the guilt feelings of Europe. There, the guilt-feelings about the Holocaust are very influential and stay in the back mind of any politician in Europe. In the United States, you don't share any guilt feelings towards Israel. I don't know.

You should answer this. I I will meet in the third.

Tucker [00:26:01] I don't have an answer myself, and I agree with you. APAC is very powerful, APAC as disgusting from my perspective, but they're not powerful enough to do what we're seeing now. So I agree, I only have theories, no real answers but it is a question that we should be thinking about I think. What is the board of peace, do you think?

Speaker 3 [00:26:26] In Gaza.

Tucker [00:26:27] Yes. The president has announced this international board that's going to run Gaza to redevelop it as a real estate project and put it in casinos and make this beautiful new world, he has said. But I think most Americans are confused as to what this actually is. Do you have any idea?

Gideon Levy [00:26:51] No. And there is no idea. There were very nice ceremonies, as the president liked. Did they renovate one house in Gaza? We are now almost three years. One house was renovated, one institution. One person in Gaza can say that he lives human life now? One? In the entire Gaza Strip? I don't know what they do, but I know one thing, that as long as we will Let's see. Facts on the ground. It's meaningless. There were so many so-called peace councils before with all the after each attack of Israel major attack on Gaza. There was always a huge conference somewhere in Europe or the United States with a lot of surprises, a lot promises is to rehabilitate Gaza, to bring a lot of investors to Gaza, to rebuild Gaza. I personally was once, I will never forget this day, invited to a luncheon of a new hotel in Gaza, which was supposed to be like a resort place for Israelis. Two weeks later started another war and the place was totally destroyed. So all the talking about rebuilding Gaza are not valid even if the money is there and the money's also not coming there, because there is no political plan for Gaza. It's very nice your good intention to build casinos there. First of all, who is going to run Gaza? Will Gaza be a free place? This is the first question, not the last question. First, of all guarantee the freedom of Gaza. It is impossible that 2.5 million people will not even have citizenship. Tell me Which people in the world lives without citizenship of any kind? The most oppressed people live with citizenship. Those people in Gaza have no citizenship, no passport of any country. Is it sustainable? Is it acceptable? We are in 2026 that this phenomena will continue again. It's not only that they don't have, there is no plan for the future, no vision, nothing.

So I cannot take it seriously. By the way, like also this horrible. Aid organization that the American had before. As you know, I saw your unbelievable conversation with Dr. Maynard, the British surgeon from Oxford, which you talked with in my view and really shaking conversation. I was so shaken by this conversation of you. And listen to me what he has to say about this organization who was supposed to bring foot to gas. How many people lost their lives on the lines to this food? Again, American initiative. So this will not be the solution. You first of all have to make Gaza a free place. And then you have to find a way to let Gaza run by itself. There are human beings like any other human being. Let them build their own institutions. They deserve it. By the way, I agree so much with Dr. Maynard because he described in your conversation how much he loves the people of Gaza. If there is one place in the world in which I would love to be one more time in my life, this is Gaza. I mean, I know that for most of the Israelis, this sounds insane, but I wish more Israelis would have met the people, of Gaza, the courage of Gaza and the sense of humor of Gaza But you know, if I say it in Israel, they think that they'll hospitalize me, I guess.

Tucker [00:30:47] Is there a sense within Israel of what's happening in Gaza? How many people have died in Gaza.

Gideon Levy [00:30:55] No sense and no interest. It's very interesting because Israel, as you know, has a free media, a free press, most of it private owned, and we are free to write whatever we want. I'm the best example. I have total freedom of speech. The problem is that because of commercial considerations, they want to please the us, their readers, and not to bother them. This goes on for many years, the occupation is not covered at all in Israel, and then came the 7th of October. Again, I'm getting back to this crucial day which changed Israel, changed for many years I'm afraid. And after the 7 of October, it was very clear to every Israeli that we have no interest in Gaza. Why would we bother about Gaza? They are all terrorists, they are all Hamas. And the media cowardly. Stopped covering Gaza. I can ensure you, Taker, that any TV viewer in Omaha, Nebraska, saw so much more of Gaza than a Tel Avivian who lives next to me. I can assure you. And they don't want to see it. It's not that they want to see it and the media doesn't show it. No, we don't to hear. We don't. Look, can I give you an example? Please. Monday is my travel day to the West Bank. I traveled today to a hospital in Hebron, in which I met the family of the baby of seven months who was killed by an Israeli soldier last Friday. Israeli soldier shooting a baby of seven months in the car of his family. Daytime, I mean, there was daylight, seven o'clock in the evening was daylight. The whole family, grandmother, father, mother, and two children in a car. The car stops. The soldier after the car stopped, brought two shots, killed the baby in his head. Horrible story. Do you really think that Israel was troubled by this story? Except of my newspaper average, you think that- Anyone bothered to bring the story, they mentioned it, yeah, but the framing of it was, you know, some kind of incident, not really serious. Imagine yourself a Jewish baby is being kept like this, with a rifle from 10 meters. Nothing. He saw them and he shot. I don't know why. He claims he felt danger. No, it is so dangerous to meet a family with two children and grandmother who is 80. It is so danger to the soldiers. And he shot him. Now, the fact that this is happening has to do also with the fact that it doesn't bother any Israeli, or almost no Israelis, not many. True, there are those who are very devoted. But most of the Israelis don't want to hear about it. And if they hear about it, you know, I told it today to some friend of mine and she told me, yeah, but he didn't intend to kill him. For God's sake, how do you know that he didn t intend to killed him? Two months ago, they killed another family in the car, which is this automatic justification to the army and to everything they do. So getting back to your question, when you don't want to know, when your live in denial. Look, you cannot maintain such a brutal occupation for so many years, 59 years now, without denying it. Because otherwise you would be out of your mind. The Israelis are not monsters. They have their emotions, part of them are liberals, they couldn't live with it. The only way to live with is by denying, and live with this denial, and keep the denial So that no one will, will break the denial because we really don't want to know, you know, and you've used, no, the West Bank is half an hour away from our home. It's not overseas, some colony in us an hour, in one hour. I'm in Hebron. In one hour I'm Gaza by car. It's here, our backyard, but we don't to know what's going on here. And the Israeli media, unfortunately, most of it is the biggest collaborator. With the occupation by supplying their consumers the service of pleasing them and not bothering them, and not telling the Israelis the truth about what we are doing on a daily basis. And again, Tucker, this is not only Netanyahu and Ben-Gner and Smotrich. It started much before. They did it worse, much worse. They legitimized many things. They did. But don't blame them and don't hope that after they will be gone, things will be different.

They will not be different on those issues. Other issues, yes. The occupation will be as barbaric as it is, Gaza will continue to suffer as it suffers if it will be small, what's his name, Lapid or Eisencourt or whoever. Same thing.

Tucker [00:36:27] You anticipated my next question, which was, will this change when the current leadership changes? And that's a depressing answer that you just gave. I wonder how much do Israelis pay attention to their supporters in the United States? We have a number of high profile supporters of Israel in the Unites States who have the same positions as Smotrich and Ben Gavir and Netanyahu. Are Israelis aware of that? Does it matter to them?

Gideon Levy [00:36:54] For many years, it matters to the Israelis when the United States hugged Israel, when Israel was the darling of the West, and it was the darling of the west, Israel could do things that no other country in the world could do. But when the public opinion in the United states, like elsewhere, started to shift, It was immediately labeled as antisemitic, as you know personally. Yes. Exactly as you know personally, and immediately they labeled everyone as anti-Semitic. And then the only way to cope is by blaming the United States. It's not us. It's you. You're an antisemitic. It's NOT us, the criminals of war. It's YOU, the antisemites. That's the point. So Israelis are aware that they are the evangelists who still support Israel, and Ah, still. Some members of the Jewish communities, obviously, who support blindly Israel, but Israel gave up on the world, I think. The Israelis convinced themselves that whatever we do, the world is against us, so why would we bother? And you see, practically, we know we are not beloved, but it doesn't bother us enough. That's the point. We don't ask why don't they covers. We are not courageous enough to look at the truth and ask ourselves why did they love us after Oslo? Why after Oslao Israel was so popular? And why now Israel is a parasitic? We put immediately the blame on the world, not on ourselves. We never check ourselves if we did something wrong.

Maybe we're exaggerating in Gaza. Maybe bombarding Beirut is not the right thing to do. No, no. You It's the world who aids us.

Tucker [00:38:50] Well, in a world with a globalized economy, that has real consequences potentially. So if the United States begins to withdraw its support for Israel, Israel would need a new partner in order to continue living as it has been living. Who would that partner be?

Gideon Levy [00:39:06] Do you think? The right-wingers, the settlers, the radical right-wingers, they at least seem not to care. So we will, as they say, we will fight with our hands. We will fight Iran with our own hands. Good luck. Others, because Israeli discourse does not include any thoughts about the future, any We don't think what will be tomorrow. Where are we aiming? I mean, how will Israel look in 10 years? It's, it's all in our agenda. We are living the day and therefore we ignore those questions. And people say, you know, we trust ourselves Israelis have this sense that we will always be able to improvise a new partner or maybe mislead another president and promise him the sky. And get and continue to do it until now, it was working very well for Israel, you must admit. Yes. Life in Israel is economically, we are doing better than any many other countries in the world, even in times that we are past. And now is there with the armed, who will stop?

Tucker [00:40:25] What is the goal of the war with Iran? What's the point of this?

Gideon Levy [00:40:33] So, that's the live project of Netanyahu, and we have to give him a credit for this. Yes. He speaks about it for decades, and I believe that he believes that it is a real existential danger. And I believe he believes this can be challenged only by war. And his wet dream was for years to attack Iran, military. He didn't believe in any kind of agreements and deals, like he doesn't agree or believe in any agreement with the Palestinians, or any kind of compromise or diplomacy. And he tried, as you know, with few American presidents to persuade them to go for war together, because Israel cannot go to war with Iran without the United States. It's practically not sustainable. And then he found Donald Trump, and in a way, he succeeded to pursue ideal. Again, I think the accountability is Trump's. I don't buy that Tanyao can push Trump into a war. You know Trump much better than I, and you know that he's not so easily pushed into a world somewhere far away. If Donald Trump decided to go for war with Iran, it's his responsibility no less than- Nathanael's.

Tucker [00:42:02] But yes, I agree with you.

Gideon Levy [00:42:06] If this is the case, then Israel found, I mean Netanyahu, it's all Netanyahu now, about Iran, it's only Netanyahu. He found the opportunity of his life to try once and for all a military campaign against Syria. And maybe he believed that he can achieve the goals, namely regime change, dismantling the nuclear capability, Dismantling the ballistic missiles, and also he had the dream to disconnect between Iran and the proxies. What he didn't take into account is that all those goals are unachievable, even in a war. And now he stands before a deadlock exactly like Donald Trump stands before the deadlock. They tried war quite messy. He didn't bring any achievement. Don't buy all those talking about how many boats were hit and how many canals it's, you know, Iran is still strong in life and kicking, the regime is maybe stronger than it was, and now there is no goal because the goals which were on the agenda were found as unachievable. Now, the idea is to realize that there are things which are unachievable or for sure unachieveable by force. Not everything can be achieved by force, but people like Netanyahu don't accept it. What is not achievable by force will be achievable more by force! That's the way they think. And therefore, we are again and again in Lebanon, third time now, with the same strategy, which, twice, totally failed and will fail now. Same in Gaza, same in Iran. It will lead us to nowhere. But you know, when a people does not learn from its own experience, we face a problem.

Tucker [00:44:13] Why would Netanyahu continue to push Trump to keep the war going when no goals have been achieved and it doesn't seem possible that any of them will be achieved? Iran is not gonna fall apart. It's not gonna disintegrate into civil war because of the US-Israeli bombing campaign. Why would net Yahoo wanna keep it going?

Gideon Levy [00:44:37] Because otherwise, he has to admit that his life project failed. Otherwise, he had to admit he was wrong along the way. He has to have admit that pushing Barack Obama to pull out of the agreement was an historical major mistake. He has admit all this. And besides, he maybe still believes that maybe more. Aggression will bring more results, I don't know. The fact is that even the bombarding of Lebanon is, in a way, also a tool to sabotage any agreement with Iran, between the United States and Iran. And we see the linkage now. And he will do anything possible to prevent an agreement still, because either he doesn't believe in anything else, or he is not courageous enough to stand. In front of the mirror and say, my life project failed. I didn't get it and I couldn't get it because it's unachievable by force. Yes. But I don't think he's courageous enough for this. What do Israeli-

Tucker [00:45:50] Please think of the war with Iran.

Gideon Levy [00:45:52] First of all, you saw the first days, 93% of Israelis supported the war with Iran. Now, Tucker, 93%, is a figure that you get only in North Korea. Or in a good day, maybe also. There is nothing like 93. If you go now to a poll asking Israelis if today is Monday, we And some will say, I have no opinion, and others will say I don't know. You will not get 93%. And here you got 93%. First of all, you get support to end war in Israel in its beginning, for sure, automatically and blindly. There was not one war that Israel launched, and we know today how many of the wars were unnecessary, if not worse than this. You get immediately a support. The whole people unites along. The lines of the army, our military force, our pride, we have to do something, it's an opportunity, ta-ta-ta, ta ta-ti, blah blah blah. Then are coming the question marks. With Iran it was even more so because I don't remember 93% of support.

Now it's smaller, but it's still the majority. You must understand that in Israel mindset, launching a war will always be more popular than a peace agreement. Try to get now to any kind of agreement with Lebanon. You will not get not 93% and maybe not 39% of support. That's the mindset. The mindset is of living on the sword and only living on a sword and not believing in anything else. Not believing that Arabs are human beings like us, not believing in any agreements with them. You can't trust them. And the most funny notion is that the Arabs understands only the language of power and violence, while the matter of fact is that Israelis understanding language. So yeah, something very basic is calling for a reset in Israeli society and there is no one to do this reset. And therefore I'm so pessimistic.

Tucker [00:48:18] How are you treated? I mean, you've spoken so plainly and directly about what's happening in Israel. And as you just said, 93% of the population disagrees with you. So what is it like for you to live there right now as a lifelong Israeli?

Gideon Levy [00:48:35] But first of all, I thank you for the compliment, but there are no 7% of Israelis who agree with me, so you're exaggerating. I really appreciate it, but I wish I had 7%, no, there are none. And look, I'm old enough to look backwards and I was always lonely. 2014, I had bodyguards. Now I feel very safe, I must say, my freedom of speech is totally kept in my newspaper. On the other hand, there is this phenomena that, for example, in Israeli TV for three years now, I used to be often on Israeli TV. For the last three years, they didn't invite me. I mean, they invited me twice in three years while I was at least once, twice a week on Israeli. The Israeli media, except for Haritz, which is my home and my, my safe place, except of Haritz there's no room for, for views like mine. It's not personal. There's no one for it. There's not room in all those endless panels on Israeli TV for any kind of alternative view. It's, you must say only what everyone else says. Otherwise you would not invite. Now, personally, on one hand, I'm I'm very grateful to the fact that I have still my freedom. I can talk to you and say whatever I, maybe people will curse me, there is this woman who every morning when I'm jogging in the park is screaming at me at 5.30 in the morning. Oh, like a crazy woman, but she's really an exception. I'm not the issue. Really not. I'm very grateful to live in a place where at least if you are a Jew. You have your rights, at least until now, I have my home, I express my views. I cannot complain about anything, but I feel more lonely than ever.

After the 7th of October, some of my best friends, as we say, shifted. Some of my friends changed their views. I was never so lonely, never.

Tucker [00:50:54] Oh, are you gonna stay?

Gideon Levy [00:50:57] From my last, until my last breath. I mean, I'm attached to this place. I'm not, you know, observed from the outside. I'm very attached to his place and this makes the whole thing much more painful because I'm so attached to Israel. Yes. Because I feel that all those things are in that mildly half, because I feel that I was cheated as a child, telling me all kinds of stories about the beginning of the state, which were not the full truth. So I feel cheated. I feel ashamed in many cases. I feel guilty, deep guilt over the Palestinian people from the beginning. Not from what's going on now. From 48. But, you know, for the better, for the good, it is my place. I will never leave as long as I can stay here. No, that's my language. My parents came here in 1939. My father was in an illegal boat for half a year in the sea. 600 people on the boat. I can't even imagine how it was. Where from did they get supply? Any ports in the Middle East, in the Mediterranean, wouldn't let them get down.

Until they were detained in Beirut, Lebanon. Finally he got here. He had no clue, Judaism, Zionism, never knew the difference between Purim and Yom Kippurim. Between one Jewish holiday to the other, always asked me, when do they fast? When do they eat? But so, no clue. But this was his only rescue. He couldn't go elsewhere. He left his fiancee and parents and never saw them again. My mother came here in a project of children, saving children. She was 16 when she came here, Turkey Boots. They were not Zionists, or not anti-Zionists, they were not political. They had very nice life in Europe. And all of a sudden, something uprooted them from Europe and Israel, Palestine was their only rescue. I cannot forget it. And therefore I'm very, very attached to all my memories. Can you be attached from Maine, from United States? I don't know. I cannot to be uprooted from there. I mean, all my memories are here. All my friends, it's not even an issue. It's not an issue, I will stay here as long as I can. Maybe one day I'll be forced to leave with those small churches will continue. Who knows, but no, no, I'll stay here. I'm old enough also.

Tucker [00:53:41] I feel the same way about my country. When, looking back on your long life in Israel, when, and you said that the roots of what we're seeing now began long before Smotris and Ben-Gvir took power. What was the moment you would point to where the country changed?

Gideon Levy [00:54:02] I'm not sure it's the moment that the country checked. I'm no sure the country changed. I think my attitude changed because if I look now backwards, you see that it was all there in the beginning of the 70s. It's known the country basically are using today the same methods like in the Nakba of 1948, namely, uprooting the Palestinians, trying to push them away. Trying to tyrannize them in order to push them out, trying to take over their economy, their life, their heritage, everything. This started long before the state was old. This started with the beginning of Zionism and never stopped. If it was acceptable then, You know, 48 Holocaust people like my parents, you need to build a stay. You cannot be too Two more, so to say. But we never stop this. In this very moment, we spoke about Gaza, what's the difference, go and see the West Bank. What they do now in the West Bank, I'm every week in the west bank, what they do now in West Bank is exactly what the first Zionists did in 1948. And now we have this regional superpower and still we want more and still more real So, you know, those things are very hard to change. So I don't think that Israel changed so much. Yes, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, and above all, Netanyahu, who legitimized them, did a big shift, mainly by legitimizing. You know, we had this Rabbi Menir Kahana, who you Americans were kind enough to export him to us, and we are very grateful. If you should have any game feelings, it's for exporting Americana to Israel.

Tucker [00:56:07] Yes, from, from Brooklyn to, to Israel. I remember it. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you, America.

Gideon Levy [00:56:17] Meir Kahana, when he was speaking in the parliament, the Likud members would step out. He was not legitimized because he was a racist, nobody was accepting him. And finally, he was declared illegal until he was murdered in the United States. That the big drama of Israel isn't there, this is what defines Israel, the occupation. There is no one to tell it, or almost no one, and that I know nothing about it, me personally. I was in the darkness. And then I started gradually to cover the occupation until I made it the mission of my life. And then gradually my views became more and more radical. The more I saw, the more adequate I became. I believe that almost every Israeli who would witness what I witnessed in the last 40 years that I'm working for Aret, I believe it's part of the Israelis who would share the same views like me. So the shift was in me, not in the country. The country is running the same principles from 1948 until today. And this is so worrying me, because it's not that we all of a sudden change. For the Zionist leftists, it's very convenient to say, oh, this Netanyahu, he brought this curse on our heads. We were so beautiful before, so honest, so innocent, and then came this evil Netanyahu and made us into a periastic. No, my dear friends, we did it before BiBi and we'll continue to do it after Netanyahu and Netanyahu did very bad things. But don't put everything on him. In Shimon Peres and Tzach Rabin, who got the Nobel Peace Prize, are responsible to more settlements than Netanyahu. They started the project of settlements, together with other people in the Labor Party. So let's realize that something much deeper is sick, and not only Netanyahu and his government, which I'd be very happy to see them stepping down, obviously. But it will not solve the basic problems, unfortunately. We have to find something optimistic, Takeo, we cannot just move on with the tide.

Tucker [01:00:06] I agree. I just, I, I can't argue with anything that you've said. And I hope that every American watches the last hour of your explanation of what's happening in Israel, because I think it's, I think it's essential for Americans to understand that. And I also keep thinking 30 years ago, I knew, I felt like I knew many Israelis who would say what you just said. And now, now you're almost alone. So. thank you for everything you've said and for what you're doing and Godspeed, good luck.

Gideon Levy [01:00:43] Thank you, Tucker, for this opportunity. I really appreciate it.